| James Roberts |
|
Interviewers: Angela Hammond, Nikos Pappas Side One Transcription by Angela Hammond AH: Mr. Roberts we wanted to ask you a few questions about your life growing up in Richmond and how long you lived there, what your parents names were… could you give us some of that information just as background? JR: [unintelligible]… I was born in Richmond, Kentucky…I was born about five miles out of Richmond, Kentucky in Taylor's Fork Creek that's close to where Dennis Taylor owned a farm and my birthday was 1918 February the 10th. That makes me seventy-eight years old, seventy-seven, eighty-seven [laughter]…that shows you how old I am… eighty-seven years old as of this past February the 10th. And I lived around there until…well in the first place we lived upon this hill above where Dennis Taylor lived and [unintelligible]..my mother especially when Daddy first started recording for Starr Piano Company, Dennis Taylor took him up there and he recorded his first fiddle tune which may have been with Edgar Boaz..[unintelligible]….and my maiden, my mother's name was Anna Francis Risk and she married my father which was Anna Francis Roberts [*Note: mother's married name] and of course they're both deceased. And, I lived upon that hill above where Dennis Taylor's house was across.. .he lived on the creek and we lived up on the hill on the other side of the creek. AH: What did y'all do for a living when y'all lived up on Taylor's Fork? JR: We farmed and me and my Daddy played square dances and we did his fiddle…. I guess all the music he made for Starr Piano Company we were living up on top of that hill. AH: Okay JR: The first time..[unintelligible]… the first time I went with him up there was 1928. NP: What'd you grow…what kind of crops did you grow? JR: Well, the regular things, corn, raised corn and wheat and mostly tobacco, corn and tobacco. That's the most crops we had, course we had big gardens because we had a big family us and it took a big garden to feed us. My mother would can stuff she got out of the garden and preserve it for last all winter and I'll guaranty none of us went hungry. AH: How many brothers and sister did you have? JR: I had… there's nine, actually eleven, twelve born, one still born… I had a sister died at the age of four, a brother that died at the age of two. We picked some blackberries and set 'em in a can out under a pine tree in the front yard and they didn't pay any attention, he was just crawling and he crawled up there and pulled himself up on that lard can which had them blackberries in it and when they found him he was cramming them in with both hands, he was just eating them as fast as he could eat them and he wound up with dysentery {AH: Oh my goodness} and it killed him {AH: Oh no}. AH: Did Mr. Taylor farm, you said you lived up above him? JR: I don't know if Mr. Taylor farmed any at all. I don't think he ever done anything much. Actually, I think he had somebody on his farm, somebody…. the people that I know about was [unintelligible] he used to be over on one hillside working on Dennis Taylor's farm and I'd be over across the creek on the other hillside plowing or hoeing or doing something on the farm and I could hear him singing over there, course I've heard a lot of his records too that he recorded later on. AH: Did any of your other brothers and sisters play instruments…did y'all play together? JR: No there's no family at all in the band like…my brother, I had one brother that learned to play the guitar. His name was Donald and he was my… I had three other brothers. I'll tell you first there was twelve of us and there was nine of us that lived to be, nine of us that lived to be grown and five of the nine, they're all dead now except me, and five of them died of cancer…. AH: And, you've had cancer as well? JR: And, I've had it and may still have it I guess… NP: Was your mother a musician? JR: No, mother played the organ. NP: She played the organ? JR: She played the organ…[unintelligible]… Daddy'd take his fiddle and she'd…he'd play the fiddle and she'd play the organ. NP: One of those old pump organs? JR: Yeah, pump organ. NP: Where'd she learn to play? JR: She learned how in Union City….they went there…she played the organ in the church up there, the Christian Church in Union City, Kentucky. Daddy's mother use to run the county poor house there when Daddy was growing up and that's where he met her. And, so later on, later on we went back there after we left in 1935 we moved back there to the county poorhouse ….My Dad was the keeper of the county poorhouse for several years…that's the last place I lived permanently because that fall I joined that Navy in 1937 it was, in 1937 I joined the Navy and I had my back broken in the Navy and stayed in the hospital in San Diego, California for about almost a year, and I finally had my spine operated on, and I was discharged from the Navy in 1939. AH: Okay. NP: Now what instruments did your Dad play? JR: My Dad played, well I guess he could play guitar, I don't know. He played the mandolin, and he also played the fiddle and that's the only two I really remember. NP: So did any of your grandparents play? JR: Any grandparents? No, not that I know of. He had a brother by the name of Levert Roberts who was a fiddle player and he learned the tunes from his older brother and course he also learned from Owen Walker, a colored man from in Madison county and he played for parties, dances and things as far away as Louisville, Kentucky. AH: How'd he meet Owen Walker? JR: Huh? AH: How'd he meet Owen Walker? JR: I don't know how he met Owen Walker. I never,,, in fact since I got in the picture when I was ten years old, Owen Walker might have been dead then…I don't know. NP: right AH: Were y'all able to go to school with all that work on the farm? JR: oh yeah, I went to school and graduated from Union Chapel school in the eighth grade. I didn't graduate though, but I went through the….eighth…first through eighth grade…I went through the Union Chapel school and I never graduated with a diploma from school, from high school… I took the whooping cough and the measles at the same time about two weeks, about two weeks before school was out and I didn't, I didn't take the test and everything. And so, after me and him, me and my Daddy had been out in Iowa working out there for some time on the radio station for the Georgie Porgie Breakfast Food Company I came back and I went and took a test, studied up and took a test and got a diploma and got into high school, started to high school at Union City Kentucky while Daddy was still [unintelligible] AH: So y'all worked with the radio stations while, in addition to being…[unintelligible]…the poor house? [overlapping] JR: yeah, we did , we worked…come to Lexington, Kentucky. WLAP was the only station we had here then, and we come over here, and I don't think they had any records played on it….I think it was live…they had every kind of music you could think of….selling bread and [untelligible] can't think of the name right now…. NP: Did y'all have a radio? JR: We had a battery radio….Ashwater Kent something like that..and had a battery to it and we'd turn that thing on and it'd squall…sound like somebody screaming. NP: What were some of your favorite programs? JR: Well the ones that I can remember…I'm trying to think of it…some station somewhere that had string music…I can't remember what station it was…not really anything in particular. NP: I didn't know if you liked listening to the Grand Ole Opry… JR: Naa…I don't know if we could get the Grand Ole Opry or not. I don't have no idea. AH: What was your first instrument? JR: First instrument was a, Daddy came home with a [taterbud?] mandolin…I call it a taterbud…he brought that mandolin home… he was a fiddle player… he recorded first started recording for [ ] at the age of…in 1925… I was seven year old I guess at that time…he'd bring them test records home and I had a [] crank machine and I'd get in the attic and play them records over and over and over…that's the reason I recognized the fact that John Booker was playing guitar on those old numbers I was showing you. AH: How'd you and your Daddy come to play together on the radio… AH: What's the name of that radio station do you remember? JR: Right here in Lexington….that radio station was up on the second floor of Main and Esplanade. Do you know where that is downtown? AH: Yes sir I do. JR: It was on the second floor of Main and Esplanade and we use to come over three times a week, we had three programs a week. And some little girl struck on me [laughing]…I met her one day and she slapped me in the face. I never did know why she slapped me, I guess she was trying to get a little attention I guess. While we were up there in Union and had programs in Lexington, there were two girls from Irvine Kentucky [unintelligible]…that's where Harpo Kidwell was from..he's a musician…he died…he died six or eight months ago..I called him, I had somebody call him…and his son in law told me he was dead and his wife died just a few minutes after he did. AH: Oh my goodness. JR: He lived down in Georgia. NP: On this radio station, were these just any local people? [overlapping] JR: These girls…these girls…I got acquainted with them…[unintelligible]…they come…I was out sick with…with something or other. I don't know what it was now…in bed…wasn't able to go to the station…they come by the house….I believe I had the measles then, I'm not sure…in Union City they come by the house to see me…and didn't know what was wrong with me and come over to the bed where I was at and kissed me right in the bed…she didn't know that I was taking the measles and she got them too…and found out later that she had them…and had to have a doctor, when the doctor was up there had to have a shot and what ever it was made them measles break up and my fever went down…they was about to kill me. AH: Can you remember any of those first songs you were playing in the attic or even on the radio station? JR: Well, them fiddle tunes…I really can't remember names…Cripple Creek and some of those tunes…and Daddy brought the test records home…and I'd take that machine, record player and wind it up and played them things…and I noticed Daddy there wasn't…Daddy had guitar players he had Dick Palmer and Edgar Boaz playing guitar for him…didn't sound like Asa Martin to me and I asked Daddy, I asked Daddy who that was playing guitar on them and he told me it was a black man…he told me it was a black man…[*Note: Mr. Roberts is referring to "Old Buzzard" and other cuts made with John Booker] I remembered that…and I, when I got this discography, JEMF Quarterly and got looking at it and saw those numbers on there, no name that's after Daddy got finished with his two year contract with Dennis Taylor and decided 'cause Dennis Taylor wasn't puttin' nobody's name, Dennis Taylor's Kentucky Boys that could be anybody, he thought his name ought to have been on them labels so he did as little as he could until that contract was over, and just as soon as that contract was over in '27 he got that guitar player, John Booker, and he went to the studio over there and done eight numbers, and it's in this discography I got. [Mr. Roberts is referring to a discography in JEMF Quarterly.] NP: So when you played these dances, did you play dances mostly around Richmond or did you also play say in Lexington? JR: No, no no…it was all in Madison county. They used to have them at home every week. Every week you might say at some locality in Madison county Kentucky that's where…in Richmond. NP: So how long did it take to get to Lexington from Richmond? [JR coughing] JR: It's about twenty four miles I believe. AH: The dances you mentioned earlier, did any of the African-American fiddle players you mentioned, Owen Walker or any of the Booker brothers ever play those dances? How did y'all come to know the Bookers? JR: Well I never did really know them personally, I don't know how Daddy knew them, through Dennis Taylor I guess. On that session with the two tunes I mentioned where they had the banjo player on there, Dennis Taylor didn't know how the music ought to sound. He didn't know if it was in tune, out of tune or what it was. He just listen to the….so he didn't know the difference, I can't even think of the banjo player's name now, but I heard Daddy complaining about the banjo playing , with that man clashing with the fiddle and so it makes me think Daddy was playing the fiddle on them Deer … what was it? AH: Forked Deer JR: and.. NP: Grey Eagle JR: Grey Eagle…that's the only two I got of Dennis Taylor's Kentucky Boys….so I can imagine that's what it was…it was Daddy playing the fiddle and could hardly recognize…that banjo he called it clashing with his fiddle playing…. [coughing] NP: Should we talk about his trips? JR: I remember he dissatisfied. Why would he have been dissatisfied if he wasn't on the record? AH: Actually, Tony Russell lists Jim Booker as the fiddle on there, but you're saying that it was on Grey Eagle and Forked Deer, but you think that, you're pretty sure that it was you're Dad. JR: John said it wasn't his brother Jim. AH: In the interview that you did with John Booker he said that it wasn't his brother Jim, but it was your father. JR: He said he didn't remember--he [Jim Booker] wasn't there. AH: Okay, okay. And, you're pretty sure it was your Dad. JR: I'm not sure it could have been Joe Booker. That's Jim's brother. AH: Ah, I see. I see. NP: But, you're Dad was complaining about how loud the banjo was. JR: How loud… the banjo was over riding the fiddle playin' … on those two tunes…was…Marian Underwood was the banjo player. I'm not sure. AH: Lists Marian Underwood. That's right. And, Willie Young on guitar. JR: Willie Young? AH: That's what it says in the discography [Tony Russell]. I don't know if it's correct or not. JR: I've never heard of that name before. AH: okay. We'll have to look into that a little bit more then. AH: When was your first trip to Richmond? [Indiana] JR: My first trip to Richmond was in 1927, 1928. AH: Do you remember what month it was? JR: It was in August, had to be, because I wasn't going to school then. And, I was out of school I can tell you the exact day if you wanted to know. NOTE** Long pause here. Mr. Roberts is looking at an article in JEMF Quarterly trying to find the date of his trip. JR: It was August the 23rd 1928. AH: Did you go up there with your Dad? JR: I went with my Daddy and Asa Martin and Ted Chestnut too, I don't know. AH: Do you remember Ted Chestnut? JR: No sir, I knew Ted Chestnut. Dick Parman too. AH: Who was Ted Chestnut? JR: He was from London, Kentucky. He was a preacher's son. He played ukulele and Daddy took him…Daddy took him and Dick Parman was the guitar player…Daddy took him to Chicago…took him to Chicago with him when he went up there…where I said he met Blind Blake…played some music with him [Ted Chestnut] and he started recording for Paramount at the same time. AH: When y'all went to Richmond did Dennis Taylor make those arrangements? Or was there somebody else that made those arrangements? JR: For the two years [Mr. Roberts is referring to the years his father was under contract with Dennis Taylor, from 1925-1927] Dennis Taylor did. Daddy done just as little as he could cause he couldn't understand why they put Dennis Taylor's name on Taylor's Kentucky Boys when Dennis Taylor couldn't even whistle a tune. AH: laughing JR: He even put his wife up, had a big picture made of her and had put her picture put on, had some…got a lot of sheet music printed up with her picture on the cover of the song… and she… AH: Where did y'all stay when you went to Richmond? JR: We stayed in some kind of… I know where we ate…some kind of boarding house there…where everybody to smorgasbord I'd say…and they used to have one over here in Cynthiana (Kentucky) or somewhere too. Go in there and have a table about fifteen or twenty feet long with all kind of food on it get you a plate and go around and help yourself and go around and get some more if you want to for a certain price. AH: I'm sorry. How long were y'all in Richmond on that trip? JR: I'm not sure exactly how long we was there. 28 and …let's see…August
28…23rd..24th… NP: Were there days in Richmond where you weren't in the recording studio? JR: [unintelligible]…No I don't think so…I don't think so…I think we were there the 23rd…24th…yeah two days, two days according to this. [Mr. Roberts is again referring to an article in JEMF Quarterly] AH: Now you mentioned Asa Martin. According to the documents of the Starr Piano Company and Gennett you recorded the "Old New Hampshire Village," and "Friends Long Ago." Do remember those two songs? JR: Yeah, yeah. "East Bound Train," "Friends of Long Ago," "Old New Hampshire Village," "East Bound Train," and … AH: Was that just you and Asa Martin? JR: Yeah. AH: Okay. AH: What was the recording process like at that time when y'all were there? JR: I think that was the first year that they had the electrical recording unit. They did away with the horn a year before that. And, they were changing over then, they were going over to electrical recordings. I don't think me and Asa ever did, I know Daddy did, I don't think me and Asa ever did any recordings [acoustic], I think it was done away with in about 1927, the year before… NP: How'd you get interested in doing all the songs, because your father only recorded one song, "In the Shadow of the Pines?" You only recorded songs and not so much instrumentals. JR: Well Daddy thought, he wanted everything to be fiddle music. It griped him that he couldn't play fifteen minutes on them records…cause they limited him so much time…you'd almost have to take his fiddle away from him to make him quit playing sometimes cause he thought it didn't have enough fiddle playing and he fought that for as long as he recorded and when he got to the place where songs took over and fiddle tunes were a thing of the past you might say…fiddle music…it comes back you know…I think my Daddy was instrument… and all them different names that he released them records under and everything…how many different…people learned them records and they…I don't know if they know who the fiddle player was they learned them from. It was Doc Roberts ….I don't know how many names he's got in here [referring again to an article in JEMF Quarterly]…he had so many names that… ha ha…well and…Jim Burke, Frank Nelson, Jim Hawkins, Carl Harris, Billy Jordan, Fiddlin' Bob White…that's some of the names my Daddy…the records released under those names. Fiddle players all over the United States got them records through Sears and Roebuck and places that sold them like that.. AH: Do you remember what the recording studio looked like on the inside and outside there in Richmond at that time? JR: No, I don't. I don't really remember. I can't remember. I got to thinking about that, and I think maybe we recorded through the horn, but we didn't…I think they done changed over when we got there. AH: Do you remember about how many folks it took to make a recording when y'all were there? JR: How many they had in the room? AH: Yeah that helped with the equipment and those sorts of things? JR: The only thing we saw was the engineer and I guess he had a volume control, I don't know. AH: You don't remember the names of any of those fellows do you? JR: No, I sure don't. I remember…I don't believe if he did this… one of the trips I took up there, I don't know it might have been the next trip… I think the last trip I was there it might have been 1930 I think I don't know, they took us on a tour of the plant of the Starr Piano Company and he was the man who took us on this tour and I don't know who he was, but he was showing us, he showed us and explained to us… they took those records, the tapes, I mean the masters and swung those things, they had a vat…[coughing] full of copper water, a vat full of copper water, and they took those masters and choose the ones they're going to keep… and then they take the masters and sink them down in the copper water and let them set there, 'til that set on them and dried…and then they take them in another room and put one on top and one on bottom and [slap]press the record with them. So they took us and showed us those vats had copper water in them all them things hanging in there, had a hook on a line…[unintelligible]…I don't know how many… AH: So it was automated? JR: It is…they filled that thing full of water and some kind of copper, but the copper always done it…it was full. They strung that thing over the hook… and run it down in the water and let it sit there. AH: Okay. Wow. JR: Then they'd pull it out, after a certain time pull it out of the tank. AH: Do you remember any other kind of equipment they were using in there? JR: No, I don't. AH: Just that copper water vat? JR: I don't even remember what kind of microphone it was, and I happened to be singing in it. NP: Was the recording engineer in a booth? JR: He was in a booth and had a little light, red light…some other kind…..and when the light come on…time to start, and when it was time to stop….there was a time limit on it. I don't know, I guess it was still…that wasn't before they put the swing on there to trip the machine was it? I don't know. Maybe it was I don't know. NP: So how big was the room that you recorded in? JR: Well it wasn't too big. As far as I can remember it might have been ten or fifteen feet square. Something like that. NP: So did the recording booth have pianos or anything like that in there? JR: I don't remember seeing any. Course I probably looked at them and didn't know what it was. NP: So how did y'all tune in a session like that? JR: I was wonderin'. I was wonderin' about that myself cause we didn't have no pitch pipes. We didn't have any pitch forks. Guitar to tune by, standard. I don't know if we…sometimes I wonder if we had any idea if we, low pitch, or what it was. That's the reason I can't tell about some of the tunes my Daddy fiddled in cause…according to how they had the instruments tuned up I guess. AH: Were you happy with the cuts that were made there? Did they come out the way you thought they should. JR: I never paid too much attention to that…[unintelligible]. AH: You also went to Richmond in April 1930. Is that right? JR: I was there in 1930. I think that was the last time we was there. I'm not sure. [**Long pause. Mr. Roberts is fumbling through papers again looking for the article on his father that appeared in JEMF Quarterly.] JR: It says…January the 14th, the 13th. That "Callahan' was rejected. And, it was the 13th January 1930. AH: Oh, okay so y'all were there in January. Were you there in April as well? JR: I don't know if I was there. I don't even know if I was there then or not. I guess I was…James Roberts…[Mr. Roberts is again looking at an article in JEMF]. AH: Did Dennis Taylor make those arrangements too? JR: No. No. Daddy done… Daddy'd done got a world away from Dennis Taylor. AH: Now he was finished with Taylor in '29? JR: '27. AH: '27. JR: He signed a two year contract in 1925 and went up there, him and Edgar Boaz and a lot of people said Edgar Boaz, Daddy took him up there, [unintelligible] from Paris, KY, and Edgar Boaz was up in Indiana somewhere and Daddy led him there, while he was there with Dennis Taylor. And, he recorded with him. And, he backed Daddy up on some of them tunes. AH: So Mr. Boaz brought your Dad back, brought y'all back in 1930 is that right? JR: No. No. Boaz didn't have nothing to do with it. Boaz just played the guitar, he was a guitar player, played guitar behind Daddy's fiddling. And also, on that song you were talking about the only song Daddy ever.."Shadow of the Pines," he played that guitar on that. NP: Yeah, because he had three guitar players he ever played with: Asa Martin, John Booker, and Edgar Boaz. JR: And, Dick Parman. [sp?] JR: The first one he had was Boaz. Edgar Boaz. Unless John Booker was playing guitar on Taylor's Kentucky Boys and Daddy was playing fiddle. And, I believe that's the way it was. I'm not sure. AH: Who all went with y'all that time in 1930? JR: Well it says here….[Mr. Roberts is again looking at an article]… at different times, I think it was Ted Chestnut went with us…I think Dick Parman might have went up once or twice….I don't think Dick Parman played much…he might have went with Asa Martin somewhere. AH: Do you remember a Spanish group when you were there Carrera and Crespo, or a man named Roy Hobbs. JR: Roy Hobbs…I've known Shorty Hobbs forever. He was a mandolin player. He went up there with us one trip…he went up there with us one time and also Asa Martin one time. I didn't go. Dick Parman did too. See when Daddy quit, he quit. And so Asa tried to carry on with it, taking people up there….and, if you'll look, according to this [Mr. Roberts is again referring to an article in JEMF Quarterly] rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected. They rejected just about everything he did. AH: It says…from the company ledgers you recorded several songs on that trip, "the Butcher Boy," "I Tickled Her Under the Chin," "Maggie Dear," "I'm Called Away," "Put on Your Old Grey Bonnet," and "An Old Fashioned Picture of Mother." JR: Wait a minute…[unintelligible]…"Tickled Her Under the Chin," "Put on Your Old Grey Bonnet." I guess that's…"Put on Your Old Grey Bonnet," yeah I guess that's me. And, uh…. AH: Is that you and Asa Martin on those? JR: Yeah. NP: How did you learn those songs? JR: Huh? NP: How did you learn those songs? JR: I don't know where we got them. I didn't…none of them came from me. Asa got them somewhere. I don't know whether they'd been recorded, performed by somebody he had a record of or what. NP: Did you practice before you went into the recording studio? JR: Yeah, I went over to…sometimes I'd go over, the first time I went up there, we get together and go over to his house, I'd go over to his house. He lived on [unintelligible] avenue in Winchester. I'd go over there and stay a week, something or other. And, we'd run over these songs, get the songs ready. NP: So you already knew what you were going to do? JR: We had an idea. Yeah. And so, [unintelligible]…didn't nobody ever teach me any harmony parts, I don't know how I ever knew a thing. AH: Did y'all, and y'all stayed overnight on that trip as well? JR: I don't know…[unintelligible]. AH: Do you remember anything from that trip about where y'all stayed or where y'all ate? JR: We ate at the same place all the time. AH: The smorgasbord? JR: The smorgas….whatever it was. And uh, I think this…yeah I ate there too, I don't know. [unintelligible]…he mentioned a place where he…sounds like he maybe did, I don't know. They might have taken him out in the back yard and let him eat. At that time…haha. NP: So Asa was considered kind of the leader of the whole thing? JR: Leader of what whole thing? NP: I mean he was the leader of the trip. Because it sounds like you said Asa would get people to come up there. And that… JR: I don't know. After Daddy quit going he did. NP: Oh, okay. JR: He quit…Daddy quit going and I quit going. And then I said that he got to taking other people up there, but it didn't last very long because uh…According to this [JEMF article again], in fact see the rejected…out of one, two, three, four, five….one, two, three, four, five, six, seven…out of seven tunes he got two of them that…"I Love You the Best of All," and "If I Only had a Home Sweet Home," and let's see who was doing that….Dick Parman I guess…Dick Parman and Lowell Smith…Lowell Smith and Dick Parman did that. That's the only ones on that trip. That was the only tunes they released according to… NP: So how many takes would usually have to do of these songs? Would you re-record them a lot? Because you said only the best take was… JR: They had…sometimes they play one tune and you hear somebody say "well no mistakes were made." But, I've got tapes, not from the Starr Piano Company, but from the other station, or company that we recorded for, the American Record Corporation in New York. I've got tunes now that I know that they didn't release, because I messed up on them and I know they wouldn't have released them with them like that. So somebody listed [?]one of the cuts they didn't release see. AH: Maybe "Blue Ridge Mountain Blues." That was 1932 according to my list here, you and Asa Martin up in, at ARC, that was one of the ones that wasn't released. JR: American Record Corporation? AH: Uh huh. Do you remember that song? JR: What was the name of it? AH: "Blue Ridge Mountain Blues." JR: That's another discography. That ain't from Gennett. AH: No, that one's ARC, but it wasn't issued. It was one of the one's that you were mentioning that wasn't issued up in New York. JR: Oh, uh yeah. I don't know. Maybe it is. Some of them [unintelligible]…took some Lowell Smith, whatever the name was, and that Dick Parman up there. That session that they did only released one number. And, the one that did release…maybe when we started with American Record Corporation, Daddy started taking Asa up there. I don't think Daddy even knew him back when he started recording them things. I don't know whether he did or not he never did say nothing about it. [Mr. Roberts did not remember that the question had to do with his recordings with Asa Martin on the ARC label. He seemed to be somewhat confused.] NP: So would you all stand around a microphone in the studio? Just one microphone? JR: We had one microphone, and believe me, nearly everything you do, you do sitting down. NP: Oh really. JR: Instead of standing up. NP; Why was that. Why would you all sit down. JR: When we all started making personal appearances around Madison county, me and Daddy and Arthur Rose, me and Daddy, we never did make as many personal appearances with Asa, but other people we'd make personal appearances with….we'd go out to the school and we'd have a show to put on. We'd have three chairs and set the chairs down, and when we'd set the chairs down, we'd set down, and somebody would stand up and say, now Doc Roberts is going to fiddle for you so and so. And, he set down 'til all the fiddlin' was finished, and stand up again, announce the next number and then set down again. That's what we'd call the show. AH: Okay. JR: We was put on concerts. NP: So that's why you sat down? JR: No, no. People wasn't standing up and playing music then. People sat around the house and played music, but they didn't know to put a cord around the neck and learn to play standing up. [laughter] JR: I guess that's the reason, I don't know. AH: So it was usual to sit down is what you're saying? JR: Everybody did when they played music and sat around the house. You sat down in a chair like when you played somewheres [sic] else, schools and things. NP: I didn't know that when you were in the recording studio where the microphone, like when y'all were doing songs, did some of you have to be further away from the microphone than others to get the balance right or do you remember any of that? JR: I don't know really. That was up to the engineer and I don't know whether he did… grab one or two of those microphones…in front of us. We didn't have two I guaranty we only one. He'd sit here, and I'd sit here about the same distance from the same _____. That's the only way I can figure it out because I don't remember actually the tune, but how I remember doing it. AH: Did you earn any royalties from those recordings at Starr? JR: Starr piano company? AH: Yes sir. JR: Yeah Daddy had royalties. AH: But, your recordings though? JR: Me. AH: Mmm Hmm. JR: Did I get any? AH: Mmm Hmm. JR: A ten year old? They thought I was working for my breakfast and dinner. [laughter] JR: I was about thirteen when that Calloway gave me twenty dollars after I recorded that, "___on the Old Cabin Door," and make a trip to New York city. That was my first solo. AH: I see that it was released on… JR: They call him W.R. Calloway, that was his name, I don't know what his name was. AH: "Crepe on the Cabin Door" March the 6th, 1931, you were thirteen then? JR: I guess I was. AH: I guess so, yeah. Did they have you sign any contracts? Or they just… JR: They paid Daddy, W.R. Calloway and Art Satherly, they were hunting artists for American Record Corporation. I believe they'd paid Daddy, a flat rate to come up there for twenty numbers. We did twenty numbers each time we went up there. Supposed to be twenty numbers whether they reached it or not. AH: How did you…what was that like for a boy that was ten years old going up to Richmond and eating out? JR: Oh, that was really an experience for me. I remember one trip we made. It must have been the last trip we made, Shorty Hobbs [unintelligible]…recorded with us…and he drove the car, it was his car, and we took our time going along, there was two of them…you know how they used to make them, curtains running up the side, and we, and I can remember one thing in particular coming home, we pulled off the side of the road to a place where they, a store you know, off the highway, you see a store off the road pull off in the gravel. He pulled off there at one place and we decided to go in and I got a strawberry pop. Nehi pop. NP: Oh, you got a Nehi. JR: I got a Nehi pop, and you know what? That stuff burnt my tongue. I can remember drinking that stuff, it was the first pop I ever drank in my life. NP: Really? You never had an Ale 8 growing up? [Ale 8 One is a very old local soft drink brewed in Winchester, KY.] JR: Never had none of that stuff. We didn't have nothing like that where I was raised. AH: So it was big time going to Richmond. JR: It was big time going to Richmond. AH: What did you think about Richmond when y'all first drove into town? JR: Well I never give it much thought. I wonder today how big a city that is now. AH: I think…well they've certainly been affected by the manufacturing plants that have closed in the area. So it's… I think it's changed quite a bit over the last few years. JR: You know Lexington…I can remember when Lexington was 27,000. AH: Were there any musicians you met there that just impressed you when you were a boy? JR: No, there wasn't usually another….not there. Not in Richmond. Now up in New York City, I ran into a lot of people up there, That's where I first met the Carlisle Brothers, Bill Carlisle and Cliff. They got on the train in Winchester. We got on the train in Winchester to go to New York City and they were on the train already. AH: You could get on a train in Winchester and make it to New York? JR: We had to go…get on a little bus, woman drove a bus, and she drove the black line from Richmond to Winchester, and we go on that black line bus, and pick up Asa Martin and he'd go. Side Two transcription by Nikos Pappas A: bout meeting ahh…. N: hold on, let's just give it a (Pause) N: Ok, its probably A: You were talking about meeting, ah, Cliff Carlisle in New York at ARC J: We met him in Winchester and he got on a train A: oh, in Winchester and he got on the train with you J: and they went there and stayed there with the time I was there… and we go in a restaurant and eat, and, I tell people this and it's kinda silly, ah, Bill, Bill was a big clown though. Cliff was a very serious man. But Bill Carlisle, Cliff, Bill Carlisle was a clown. And every time we go in the, leave the restaurant, go in the restaurant up there in New York City you'd have these toothpick holders… He'd, he'd, was he only empty that thing and stick it in his pocket A: (laughter) J: And so I, ah (laughter), I asked him…. I said, Bill… I said, "What in the world are you getting them toothpicks like that for?" He said, "My father in law own the sawmill. So I'm, ah, right trying to raise the price of lumber." (laughter) J: That's how silly he was. A: I've got a couple, uh, some questions to ask you about your, your dad in Richmond. Umm… you mention, uh, that he was unhappy with the, the clash of the banjo and the fiddle, and… Ah, was it, uh… J: Taylor's Kentucky Boys here A: Right, on the Taylor's Kentucky Boys. Did he ever talk about the sound quality on any of the other recordings that he did in Richmond? J: No they didn't, uh… at that time they didn't, they didn't worry about sound quality like we do today. They just went and made them and sounded like they… like the engineer made it sound (laughter). 'S'all. A: Did he make, uh, money on those Gennett recordings? J: Ah, ah, I suppose he did. I imagine he got, he got a royalty check from them, I don't know. Probably wasn't a whole lot but they got, they got royalty checks. N: Did he say anything about, umm, about the quality of the studio, from when he was playing into the horn as opposed to when it was… J: No he, ah… he never mentioned that at all N: the microphones or anything? J: He just uh, he thought it was the natural process. I guess one time, one time, I know that, uh, Gennett… delayed a, delayed a recording because they was changing over. I mean, he, he talked about that. He was supposed to, uh, the one to record and they put it off. I don't know what they… they recorded somewhere else down in Richmond and then after a little while they were changing over to the electric recordings to the… horn… and uh A: Do you think that might have been in Chicago? J: No… it was in Richmond, Indiana. A: But what… they changed studios. They were in a different location is what you're saying. J: No, they changed, they changed, ah… they went from playing through the horn N: (indistinguishable) A: mmm, mmm J: to uh, uh, to playing through a microphone A: I see J: that was in 19… uh… oh, 19 and uh… 26 I guess. 27. N: How many copies of the records would he get? J: Uh, he'd usually bring if he'd bought them and Hobb played that.. they'd bring, bring them on home. They'd usually be one. He'd bring a tape. Them things was about that thick. N: Right. Would you get a copy too when you were doing your recordings? J: No, no, no…. He bought, he bought them off them. They had that… thing, I think that, I think that machine get back in the attic. Play them fiddle tunes and things that we recorded… and ah, that's the reason he played that.. ah, that… some of them fiddle tunes… that he, he recorded with John Booker. And he had some of them son, and he brought it home and listened. I was, I had that… had that machine back in that attic and listened to that thing… and uh… away from all the rest of the family (laughter). Where there wasn't a body. I went there back there in that attic and played them things, oh, ah… that log house where we used to live. And ah, (coughs) the… the reason I, the reason I did that was because I… I, I, I, I couldn't, I couldn't figure out what, what that sound was, that guitar playing. Ain't nobody never played that 'til my daddy… sounded like that. And I asked him and that's when he told me... it was a colored man did it. And on uh, on some of them, "Waynesboro," some of them tunes he did. N: So what did you think about, like, say, the way that John Booker played guitar or how Edgar Boaz played guitar? J: No, it was different. It was different, as different, as different…. all of them. And… eh… lotta, lotta tunes, and a lotta … Asa Martin got credit as ah, as what I got a tune, I got one tune on here [indicating cassette tape he brought to the interview] and I don't know what it was but me and daddy and Arthur Rose went to New York City and left place you can see here [indicating to his discography he brought to the interview so as to give factual dates for recordings]. And I know that tune was recorded then because I was playing guitar behind it. It don't tell that, it don't tell that in the discography. N: So, umm, was it a difference in how they were picking? J: They was, uh… they was a difference the way they, umm, they, they noted. The reason I know this to me cause I had a run (sings run) on a run. N: Right J: And ah… ah…. I did that, and Asa never did that. He couldn't hit a string 'cept more… once his mouth and try to ah, try to figure which way to hit. N: So how did you learn to do the runs? J: I don't know. I don't know what I heard. I don't have any idea. I used to listen to some Riley Puckett, if you've heard of that. A: mmm, mmm J: Riley Puckett was a pretty good guitar player. He was…. he played with this… I do… this finger thing. N: Right J: Like this [demonstrates how Puckett played]. And I've, I've seen him play a set over much there in Richmond. I sit there one day and watched him play at Muncie's Furniture Company over there in Richmond… and I couldn't figure out how in the world he made them runs (sings). N: (laughs) A: What was the name of that furniture company where you saw Riley in Richmond? J: Ahh… Muncie's Furniture Company A: Muncie's J: That and ahh… Muncie's the one that booked daddy… and a bunch… and a… and Edgar Boaz and… some of them that put on some... umm…. school and things down at the Madison County. A: I see J: Each bunch at the Madison furniture store. And that's where John Lehrer met me and… uh… and umm… Amburgey… Amburgey sisters. That's where he met me on somebody that worked with the Coon Creek Girls and uh… Violet and Daisy left them. And uh… Rose was fixing to have a baby. That left Lilly Mae by herself and there's the three of these girls that fit in perfectly. So that's why we went to Renfro Valley. We… and… a group of them in Bluefield, West Virginia. And he had me bring them girls down there. And I took them down there… and he… and he called them… uh… later on he called them to work for Lilly Mae. And they worked there until we were… until he… sent us to Atlanta. When he sent us to Atlanta, why… they had a… had a signup down there and tried to claim… that the… Atlanta Journal wouldn't put nobody on the payroll. Man and his wife together… I think… I think he had something to do with that cause… he didn't… he and Violet Davis, he didn't want them singing with him. That was what. Them never left, never left and went somewhere else. And that was just what I was fixing to do down in Renfro Valley until uh… he, he decided to send us… down to Atlanta. I figured I'd get to sing with her. N: So did your father ever try to get your mother to come into the recording studio? J: Nah, no… She never, she never done. She wouldn't, she wouldn't…. A: Did any of the other family travel with you guys when… J: Never. Now when after I left home… uh, uh… my brother… Donald took over the guitar playing behind, behind daddy's fiddle playing for dances and parties and things… things like that. And so… he uh… he done that. That's, that's one… one of the things that, uh… Writer down in Nashville said that he was… called him Tom, and he got that news from, uh… my ex-wife I guess. She thought, she didn't know any different but it was Donald. A: It was Donald. J: Instead of Tom. A: How did your dad come to play the fiddle? Do you know? J: (Laughs). Ah… I don't know bout that. A: Do you know if any of his… fam, uh… other family members played? J: His, his… his brother played fiddle, Levert. He learned a lot of his tunes from his older brother, Levert. A: Levert J: Levert. L-E-V-E, V-E-R-T. Levert. I don't know which ones that he learned on but… N: Did your dad play fiddle like other people around the area, or did he sound a lot different? J: I didn't… I didn't know too many fiddle players around there. He was about the only fiddle player I heard until… N: Really J: until I got away from there. N: Did you ever hear Edgar Boaz play fiddle? J: Uh, no. But, ahh… maybe he could have… I don't know. N: Cause they were, ah… in a fiddle contest together. And supposedly your father got first and Edgar got second. J: Is that right? N: And then your father said, well… you play guitar. Why don't we go do some recordings together and that was how Edgar got… played guitar for your father. J: I doubt that, I doubt that seriously. That's ah… that sounds like a manufactured story. N: Really? J: Yeah. N: OK J: I don't believe… I don't believe daddy, daddy ever met Edgar Boaz until he met him in Richmond, Indiana. N: Huh. A: I want to ask you again about Mr. Taylor. Um… what do you remember about his contracts, uh… with your dad, and other folks? J: I just know… I just know it lasted two years. A: Just two years. J: And he… daddy… and… and boys didn't want to have anything to do with him. A: OK J: He, he… he could let that contract run out. That's when he got that colored man that played the guitar and went back up there and "That Cat Came Back" a few that I'm looking at [indicating the discography he brought with him]… discography. He did it… he did it, ah… afore, afore he did it with John Booker. A: You're talking about Taylor's Kentucky Boys? J: Uh… N: Yeah the first session he did it and then he re-recorded it. J: Now, Richmond, Indiana. Edgar Boaz… "And the Cat Came Back the Very Next Day"… that there is, ah… Gennett [reading discography] A: mmm, mmm J: You got that? N: That was the same session as the "Martha Campbell." J: And he turned that around, daddy turned that around… and, uh… with Booker here [reading discography]… "And the Cat Came Back." And he, uh… he did it twice here. That was November 25, and ah… April, whatever… 27. A: I have, uh… in August of 27 in the discography that I have it says that, uh… you're, you're um… father played fiddle. But it also listed Jim Booker playing fiddle and John Booker on guitar as… as Taylor's Kentucky Boys. They did, according to the discography, they did "Turkey in the Straw," "Old Ken Hackled… Cackled and the Rooster Crowed," and "Sourwood Mountain" and only "Sourwood Mountain" was released. Um… do you remember anything about that session? Was that… eh… was that? J: I don't believe that… I don't believe that he had two fiddles with him that. A: Yeah. I thought that struck me as unusual that there would be two fiddle players on there. J: See, I think, I think… they got, uh… What has, what has happened… since, since colored people… didn't get much recognition anywhere. A: All right J: I think that, uh… they, they, they failed. They put Edgar Boaz on there, on the thing of it. A: mmm, mmm J: But, uh… then they put Asa Martin on there then… uh… on playing them other tunes, which was a colored man. A: mmm, mmm J: And they, they didn't want to mention that much. But uh… Jim Booker… is according to John, he didn't go to Richmond then to record then, to record with them anytime. A: Oh, OK. So they have, they have him listed here but there… J: Now there's a Booker now. Joe Booker played the fiddle. And, and… A: So it was probably Joe instead of Jim. J: Ah, ah… I'd say it was. It was either, uh… it was either Joe Booker, I think. It was either Joe Booker or my daddy playing. And that banjo was so loud on those tunes I heard. The banjo was so loud, you couldn't tell what the fiddle was playing, hardly anyhow. I couldn't recognize if it was my father's fiddle playing, but that… A: Well there's another set of recordings that same day with Marion Underwood, um… accompanied by, uh… Jim Booker, Doc Roberts, Robert Steele on mandolin, uh… and then, uh… it looks like, uh… uh… It says either John or Joe Booker on guitar. "Down in the Valley," "The Little… Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane," and "That's What the Old Bachelor Made of." And they rejected "Down in the Valley," um… That seems like a strange combination too. J: Somebody, I think somebody's mixed up. That's what I think, I guess. Never have two fiddle players I've ever seen, I imagine. N: So, you really didn't know the Bookers? J: I really didn't. I really hadn't ever met 'em, I was.. I, uh… I just remember daddy telling that that was a colored man… black man playing the guitar on them tunes… N: So your father didn't know them that well, either? J: He didn't… he didn't… he hadn't didn't know… have no close association with them except that recording up there. N: Huh J: But, uh… but immediately after that, immediately after 1927, when he did that, then he'd run into Asa Martin, see… at somewhere, I don't know, Winchester or somewhere. He… and so he, ah… he got Asa Martin to… he was a singer, guitar player. So he, he, he, he had no need for the Bookers. N: So, it sounds like your father knew the Walkers more than he knew the Bookers. J: I don't, I don't… I don't know. I never heard, I never heard… daddy talk, talking about the, uh… uh… Walkers. I've heard him, I've heard him say… on the interviews and thing's I've heard… that, uh… he learned his tunes from Owen Walker. But he never talked about Owen Walker and never talked about the Bookers much. A: So he, did he… form an opinion about them? Did he like them? He obviously… You said he recorded eight sides with John Booker. J: Yeah A: Um… did he, how did he feel towards… J: He, no he didn't feel, he… he… there wasn't no prejudice there at all. Never, just because people know. Never. A: How, how were the Bookers… people like that. Do you know how they were received in Kentucky, back, back then? J: Well, I'd, I'd say that they were pretty respectable people. I don't know. Seemed to me like they was. And um… John's the only, uh… John's the only one… I ever met and I talked to him twice. And when I would, I would… I wished that I hadn't got… I got both of them messed up, uh… in one way or the other. First time I went there, I took John Massey with me and he had a Sony, a new Sony he took for the purpose. And he wanted to get his fiddle playing on it so everybody could hear him. And so he, he messed the whole up, uh… the thing up. Ah, he wouldn't let me get down to the nitty-gritty. I didn't tell, wouldn't tell him John Booker what I done there. I wanted to ask him some questions and find out for myself and make sure he'd give me the right answer. And he gave me enough of them that, that I figured out he was the one. So I decided to go back again. And the next time the wind was blowing on, on up the… tape recorder that I had that I… I, I didn't get completely through it. But I had enough on there that you can understand it and I got it on this tape right here [indicating cassette tape he brought with him to the interview]. A: When uh… Now how did your dad meet Asa Martin? J: I had that he was… he uh… he mar… he married some Martin somewhere now like uh… like what you was talking about Ed Bohigar Boaz. A: mmm, mmm J: That he met Asa Martin, oh… I don't know if he was from Winchester or not. I don't know where daddy met him. Must have been over there at a fiddler's contest back in that part somewhere. A: Umm… and you meant with… you had said earlier bout that, that the contracts. Did uh… Asa Martin secure those contracts? J: No, Asa Martin never secured… secured nothing. He never had a thing. Daddy paid him. Daddy paid him five, uh… fifty dollars for going to… going up to New York City and daddy got whatever the… AR… A and R man 'cided him, and W.R. Collins paid him. Daddy got the money and paid Asa. A: Uh… um… you mentioned that you were in the Navy, uh… in the 1930s. Um… what did you do after your last, uh… visit to the Starr Piano Company, other than be in the navy? J: (laughs) A: (laughs) I know you were pretty busy at that after… uh… those recordings. J: We moved, we move to Union City, Kentucky. I went to high school up there and uh… uh… and, and that fall, that fall in November, uh… uh… of 37, we… daddy, daddy was going. He bought a little farm and was moving over on the other side of the county. And uh… and so… I had, I had to leave Union City. Uh… And I didn't, I went over to Kirksville to start… to keep, to keep going to school and I, uh… I had such a random… Boy, I got a place sensitive on my back… A: (laughs) You want to take a break and… go to the restroom or anything? J: I'd like you to get that golden thing I'm wearing and scratch my back. A: Let's take a, let's take a break for just a second and we'll… we'll pick up on that line. [Pause] J: Daddy was at that poorhouse, couple… three, three terms. And his, his, um… mother was over the county poorhouse over in Madison County two or three times. And his brother, I'm, I'm thinking… his older brother Levert I think was, was up there one term. They dated bout to run that county poorhouse. (laughs) N: How did they get into doing that? J: Elected. They had a, a, a… county, uh… county had twelve magistrates. N: Uh huh J: And the magistrates took a vote on it and they had to put in a bid… to how much meals, so many meals cause they… three, two, two or three or how many it was. And they had to put in a bid for it. Whichever one, the… thought, they, they thought would the least, most… uh, competitive, er, er… good enough… uh, bid to keep the, to the people fed. They, they's the one that got it and they, they were elected by the magistrates. Have to tell you, we were, they were full of them bids that put it in there. They went with us. N: So that, that seemed like that was more of a full-time job than farming. J: Oh… boy my mother, my… she had two grown daughters, older than me. Rosa Ellen and Coreen and they… and, and, and they helped her out there. If it hadn't been for them she would a had a time, sure enough. Old man walking up there, he had a, he had a fat. He, uh… he had some cabbage, coloreds, colored people down there on the corner of the yard and one man and one white man lived in there. And they said he's… they, they said he had lost… ah…. fortune. A: mmm, mmm J: Used to be a rich, real rich man. Lost forty… but the mind… but the mind was what important. He walked that fat… he get in that path and walk up there in the front of the yard and there was a tree up there. And he walked round that tree and back down to the house. Turn around and go back around the path. And that ground was wore down.. that thick… N: hmm J: for he'd walked, he walked that… how many years he'd been there. But he was still there when we left. That's uh, that's pitiful. N: Did they do that through the Depression? J: Oh yeah… this was now, this was 19… 30, I guess it was there during the Depression. I don't know what. Let's see, 1930… we went there in 30, 35. There 35 to 36… yeah. We were there in 1935 and 36. When was the Depression? 29… 30? N: Yeah. All the way up to… well they say, all the way up to 1940, right before Pearl Harbor. J: All the way up… Franklin D. Roosevelt. N: Yeah. A: Now… umm, when you went… after you got out of the military, umm… did you start back playing the radio shows then, or…? J: I ah, I tried to do, I do… When I got out of the navy, and came back to discharged… was discharged… a medical discharge in 1939, I went, I went to… Asa Martin at that time. Had a… got on a radio, got on a radio down there and he had posed where he, he, he had, uh… people come in who worked, they worked for him for nothing… actually. But I married, when I married my wife, uh… in one place or another where she was working for the Amburgey sisters… A: Sally? [indicating one of James Robert's wives] J: Ah.… no…. A: Martha? J: Martha A: Martha J: But her name was Irene, Bertha, and Opal was, was the Amburgey sisters. That was their real names. A: uh-uh J: And I married Irene. A: Now how do you spell their last names? J: Amburgey. A-M-B-U-R-G-E-Y. Amburgey. A: OK J: And uh… so they… so they, they was, uh… they were working for me at that time. Granny Harper was there… hunchbacked lady who played the fiddle. A: mmm, mmm. J: Bill Carlisle said he'd run into her in, uh… over in… (laughs) over in Lexington… here in Lexington at the bus station one day. And said she… setting there… she, she said, "Ain't you Bill Carlisle?" [imitating here voice] He said, "Yeah." "How'd you like to hear me play, Julie?" "Why yeah." And said she took out her fiddle right there in the bus station, and started playing and a dancing in the bus station said before you know it… the bus station was full of people. (laughter) A: Were there any other women that you remember, uh… like that, that played in this area? J: uh… A: play instruments J: I'm trying to think. Molly O'Day. Yeah, I think she worked here, she worked for John Lair, I know. A: mmm, mmm. J: um… I knew her well. Uh… other women, women… course I knew the Coon Creek Girls over in New Haven. I knew Violet Taylor, and, uh… Daisy Lane who's the one who left John Lair and went to… down in Texas someplace. And Violet Taylor… which, which one of 'em left when uh… he hired, hired my wife's… wife and her two sisters to take uh, take uh, take their places. A: mmm, mmm J: Vi, uh… We went to Atlanta. When we went down to Atlanta, Violet Taylor shows up down there and she come in there. And she worked with Martin and the girls down, down… down in Atlanta, Georgia. But they didn't last long down there cause the war come on, and uh… their husbands… left and went to, and in a defense work in Ohio and worked in, and so they left Margaret there by herself. Wasn't no… Course we was always singing together by then anyhow. A: What were they… who were they singing as… in At, in Atlanta and… Texas? J: I don't know who they, who they Violet Taylor and Daisy Lane went to Texas to work with. I used to know what Lane's name was, but I can't think of it right now. But they left John Lair and went down there and took a job, radio job, and it didn't last very long. But Violet… I don't know what happened to Daisy but… Violet come to Atlanta, Georgia and worked with Martha down there and was… and some other girls. A: On the radio? J: Radio, yeah… Didn't have, didn't have no television then. A: And what did they do? J: Sing, play the same country music. Fiddle and guitar and… N: So what ah… were the usual instruments that were used in like, um… square dances or things? What… was it always like… fiddle, banjo, and guitar or fiddle and guitar, or? J: No… uh… uh, I guess banjo they uh… they, uh… used banjo, I don't know. I never ah, I never heard nothing… uh… I'd have seen that nobody play no bass fiddle. And I never did see anybody playing any mandolins at uh… at a dance, square dance. Usually fiddle and the guitar… and uh… some kind of a… huh… John, John Booker on this [indicating cassette he brought to the interview] was talking about a funny thing bout a… bout them… bout the dances he… umm… oh uh not of playing in time or anything like that you know they didn't… I, I've never seen anything like that. Most of the, most of the fiddle, uh… uh… fiddle and the guitar, umm… N: So when would they use mandolin and…? J: I don't know. Mandolin, that… that come in, that come into being in… there's… there's a whole… tape full of them. N: Hmm J: Radio and radio… N: Like would it have been considered a new instrument when you were learning to play? J: No, Shorty… Shorty Hobbs was, was a, was a… a mandolin player. And uh… oh I learned, I learned a lot of stuff from Paul Buttskirk up in Bluefield, West Virginia and, and ah… I met Martha. First got married and went to Bluefield, West Virginia. Eh… Buttskirk family was up there and Paul Buttskirk was one of the greatest I think, mandolin players. N: mmm, mmm. J: Course I think Doyle Lawson was good. And ah… Ricky Scaggs and
um… a whole bunch of others they did. And a lot of mandolin players
now all over the country and I, I wouldn't even class Bill Monroe
as one of them. (laughs) He, he… J: he got the name. He got everybody to change the name and call it bluegrass music. We was playing blue, bluegrass music, music and recording it before he ever did anything. Fore he ever sneezed and got out of bed. N: hmm… So what ah… would your mother ever back your father up playing dance tunes? J: Oh… no, no, no. She played, she played organ. They played most out of hymnbooks N: Songs? J: Hymnbooks. Like, "Amazing Grace" and stuff like that… and songbooks. N: Right. J: And uh… A: Now what kind of… songs did you and your wife do together? You mentioned, uh… J: We A: that you all had success with a, a "Looking for a City." J: Well we did mostly, most of our tunes were… uh, gospel oriented. Come out of the Stamps-Baxter… and uh… actually we recorded uh… sessions. Sold, sold so many records on that "Looking for a City" in a 1949, 48, 49… 49 I guess. Actually we sold so many records on that that uh… Stamps-Baxter sent a man from Chattanooga, Tennessee… down there. And he had a paste, pasteboard box. And he must have had 150, 200 songbooks (laughs) and brought them and give them to us. Said, "Here, take these." And I, I… I got rid of those songbooks over the years, but I still have some of them at the house now… that they gave me in 1940. But they, they… we, we were making them a lot of money cause, uh… uh, they were playing our records. I mean… wham-bang all over the country they were, you see. Coast to coast on Capitol. N: Did they give you copies in the shape-notes or in the round notes? J: They gave them to… they gave me the books all of theirs, all of it shape-notes. All of their books is, Stamp-Baxter's in the stamp. Most, all are gospel. N: Did you ever do any shape-note singing? J: Huh? N: Did you ever do any of the shape-note singing? Did you ever sing in shape-notes or anything like that? J: Martha read music. She read, she read the… shape-note music cause her grandfather was a… teacher. Uh, taught music, singing by shape-notes. N: Oh yeah? J: And she learned that, and she took these, um… she took these, um… uh… songbooks… and she and I would get together and, and we took the form of the songs as written for quartets. We took the songs written for quartets, and, and… worked out a duet arrangement, and… and, and… a that must have been the reason it was different from what anybody else did. But the most of our… but not all of it now, cause we, we sold a whole… on ah, on that, uh… record I was talking about. Tunes we recorded was here and I called "Don't Sell… trying to think… that's uh, that's an old tune. I guess it come out of. N: So you did a lot of temperance songs? J: Temperance stuff… no, not like that. We had, uh… um… "The Sweetest Gift A Mother's Smile,"… uh… just a mixture with oh everything in between. Now that's uh… I don't know that's whether that's… that's Stamps-Baxter did "The Sweetest Gift A Mother's Smile." Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know. N: Now where was her grandfather from? J: They were… her, her grandfather was a… a… that taught shape-notes was a Quillum. Her mother's… her mother's daddy. And uh… there was, there was a Quillum. They was from over in Letcher County, around there. But there was a Quillum run for office in, uh… uh… North Georgia… Tennessee maybe it was. N: mmm, mmm J: Anyhow, uh… Cass Walker sent us there one time… to have him lecture. He was elected and I don't know if that was any of her kin folks at all… I didn't find out but I was always a suspicion. That he… that they might be some of her kin folk. A: Did you all have any children, you and Martha? J: Had no children, thank God. A: (laughs) OK. And that… now your second wife's name was Sally. J: Yeah. A: And… did you had? A: Armand J: Sandy, uh… Sally Armand. And uh… uh… I met her in Wheeling, West Virginia and she was… she was familiar with all of them. In other words… she… was familiar with, uh… Bill Carver and his wife who run a record shop there. Kept a record shop in Wheeling. And she worked for… she run around with Bill's wife all the time. But she was from… down from… um… I don't know, I don't know. River bout 40 miles below there, uh… Powhattan Point. Oh I… that's where she's from. And I met her there and then, uh… uh… and I moved to Lexington. Why she, she came to Lexington and we got married and… and… and then on and we were there for 30 years. She died of cancer. A: And she's the wife that died this past… J: No, no, no…(unintelligible). That was my third wife. A: And she, do you… did you have children with Sally? J: No, she's, we's too old to have children. A: Oh, OK. J: Both of us probably. Huh. That, that was sixteen… sixteen years ago. I married her bout sixteen years ago. A: The wife that passed away this last…? J: Last, last December yeah. A: There was a few things I wanted to ask you, um… about the… ARC recordings. There, there were a few things that needed to be cleared up. J: Well, if I'd a known about that I'd a brought my book [another discography]. I, I left them… A: Well… just to, ah… J: Maybe I can tell you some anyhow. A: They say that in January of 1930, ah… you and Asa Martin recorded in Richmond, Indiana, "Long, long ago." It was a tune that was rejected. Do you remember that? J: "Tell me the words, that once were so dear. Long, long ago. Long, long ago." [sings "Long, long ago."] A: And "The Butcher Boy," which was also rejected. J: I don't remember "The Butcher Boy" much. A: OK. And uh… and then in New York you said you recorded for… 20, about 20 sides for ARC? J: Each, each time… each time we went up there… we recorded 20 numbers. A: Each time you went… J: Each time we went, 20 numbers. And, eh… we went four times with Asa Martin and one time with… with Arthur Rose. A: Four times with Asa Martin and one time with, uh… Arthur Rose? J: I got the discography at the house but I don't… A: Oh, OK. Um… J: And they… the one that the discography I've got at the house. JEM Quarterly. A: mmm, mmm J: They got… they got them all mixed up. A: mmm, mmm J: Uh… they wasn't correct either. A: I see. Now, you said you did go with Asa Martin, um… up there, um… What did he do? Uh… do you remember any of the tunes that you did with Asa Martin up there? J: Oh, all of it except… all of the tunes I did except them 20. Wait a minute, and all of them wasn't… all them wasn't… songs, but all of them… all the numbers we did, that we did up in… I did with Asa, except my solo. I sing a lot of solo. I don't have any solos I did now. I catch… didn't sit down and counted them. But I've got a record of that I can tell you. I've got… I've had about five of those yodel tunes like, uh… "Frank Bean Mama" and… A: The "Boyle County Blues?" J: Did the "Boyle County Blues," and… N: Where'd you learn how to yodel? J: Huh? N: Where did you learn how to yodel? J: I, I heard… ah, first yodeling I heard was Riley Puckett. Wasn't Jimmy Rogers, it was… I had a record, "Rock all their babies to sleep." Ah… we did… I didn't have it. My uncle had it. Uh… uncle… what was his name? Hmm… N: Did you ever hear Emmett Miller? J: Emmett, Emmett Miller? N: Yeah J: Yeah, I've heard of him. N: Cause I also know he did some yodeling, round that time. J: Yeah. A: When did you stop playing, um… mandolin? J: Well, I… uh… I, ah… I… when I played most mandolin, what was, is a… you've only, you've only got one them on this tape [indicating cassette he brought with him to the interview]. And that's the "Cat came back." When I had Martha play guitar behind me. A: mmm, mmm J: After I left there and went to… went on my own singing, um… playing music. I, I played mandolin behind everybody course I didn't play… many solos. Cause you couldn't get anybody could… nobody can stick with a guitar like Martha. And you'll… if youl play that tune on this "Cat came back." Play it, er… Taken off, taken off a radio program in Atlanta in 1934, uh-huh… uh… 1934. (coughs) 40, 1944. Jimmy Smith was in the house in the, in the… and he introduced me… as his old professional James T. Carson. (laughter) J: Play, play… "Cat came back." A: And it was Martha on guitar behind you? J: Martha was playing guitar. And I don't, right down close towards the like I, like I said three minutes I think… and close to the end of it… it's terrible… you can hear Martha say, "Ain't that pretty?" (laughter) A: Sounds like y'all had a good time together. J: Oh, we, we used to… we, we used to put a… we had one of the most entertaining shows… most entertaining shows. I'm talking about, me… me and Martha. That's what we started… we had a unit show on out. And Bill Monroe has told me, personally, that if we ever went out anywhere… if we went out anywhere put on a show… and we saw… piece of advertise sticking up, Bill always called them leaflets… A: mmm, mmm J: tacked up. And go Bill were setting them up somewhere that James and Martha were going to be there. Say OK boys, we'll pack and go home. Cause they couldn't even draw a crowd in our, in our territory, when we was in. And they told me that personally, that they wouldn't have told me that, I don't think. I don't think they lied about it. Anyway, and we… I don't know. Most shows were put on one time. We went over to Sand Mountain, Alabama one time. A: I'm from Alabama. (laughs) J: Are you? A: Right where Sand Mountain is. J: You know where Sand Mountain is? A: I sure do. J: (coughs). We went over there to do a show one time. A unit show that me and Martha… we must a had six people we carried with… Mick, (unintelligible) and Joe King… and sometimes it changed around. Hartford Kidwell (?) was with us. And ah… we were on there doing a show and we drove all over that Sand Mountain and never did find the schoolhouse. And it was raining. It had poured the rain and I'm telling you I don't know… I thought… I thought we'd never get off that mountain. It never, ever, ever… looked like every 100 yards there'd be a false road, no sign, nothing to tell you where you were going. A: That's Sand Mountain all right. J: (laughs) And the, and the sand must have been that deep. And it got started raining and I, I, I… I was lucky to get out of there. So we got up the next day on the phone and apologized for not being able to get there. And uh… so they rescheduled the, ah… appointment in school for us to come back bout two weeks later. A: mmm, mmm J: We right back over there two weeks later, and we started… so we got there. The yard was full of people. Fill that schoolhouse up. It was about to get inside of it. Put on a show and we… You know what, we… we wound up the next morning… daylight… it was still putting on a show. We put on five shows that night in one place. A: Oh my goodness. J: Big school, big schoolhouse auditorium. A: So y'all played in Georgia and obviously in Alabama? J: In Alabama and Tennessee we would… we played everywhere… down there. 150, 200 miles. Shew. A: That's quite a ways. J: WSB and we do that sometimes and have… sometimes… we did… we did fifty some… uh… programs in one year that was full of them. Man… International Harvester. That's before they changed station managers… The manager… New manager put it, put upon this thing or whatever wouldn't have no damned hillbilly. Making more money than I'm making around here. We… our check was getting up there around 6 and 800 dollars a piece a week. A: What was the attitude towards hillbilly music? Did you all ever play up north or… J: No… He didn't … he just didn't like country music. A: Didn't like country music? J: Ah, he, he… some guy had a prejudice against it. A: mmm, mmm J: The other, other manager that was there when John Lair sent us down to Aaron, Leonard Rich (?). He was a wonderful man. A: mmm, mmm J: And he, he, he was… he's for, for us… for making money. But that man doesn't want nobody making no more, then. And we were making more money… each one of us was making more money… than he making him manager of the station. (laughter) J: And they, if they had a feeling… them had an opportunity (?), had a time. (laughs) N: So did you write any songs? J: Oh yeah… did I write any songs? N: What were some of the ones you wrote? J: What did, what did, what did I do with that thing? I've lost that one on this. Don't tell me I've lost that thing. A: What thing? J: I was… Oh my God I had a… had a song… had a song thing about the… about my whole career… on it [indicating article on his life written by Ivan Tribe in Bluegrass Unlimited]. Come out of Bluegrass Unlimited. A: Was it… on a piece of paper, or…? J: It was in a… in a… how many pages in Bluegrass Unlimited. Pause in tape A: Tell me some of the songs you've written. J: Ivan Tribe, um… Ivan Tribe, uh… I've mentioned about all of them in that article, I can't remember. N: You also said that you're, um… you're dad… wrote some fiddle tunes as well. J: Ah, he, he… I think he… "All I've Got is Done Gone." I think he… I think he recorded that on a… N: Yeah J: And maybe "Drunk Man's Dream." I don't know what all he get into. I really… I really don't know. And I, I, I had a bunch… I'm still drawing royalties through the tunes I recorded in the… we recorded in the, in the forties. I'm still drawing… in the, in the fifties, with the Masters…. Course lot of them are the Masters family of Jacksonville, Florida. And uh… wonder if you got that in there. N: How long were you down in Jacksonville? J: I wasn't… I didn't… I wasn't down in Jacksonville. The people I recorded with was from Jacksonville, Georgia… Florida. N: Cause that's where you said you met Natchez Indian. J: Well I was down there visiting them. I was down there with the Masters family. I was down there visiting with the Masters family. A: Where did you record with them? In Nashville? J: Nashville, Tennessee. A: Oh, OK. J: They recorded on Columbia. And um… "Come and tarry home," "One night I woke from a beautiful dream"… uh… and one of them, "Day of Judgment," "Day of Judgment, Come." "Blast in the trumpet of song." Uh… I can't remember them now, but uh… uh… "Man of Gallilee," uh… I think that and "Everlasting Joy," uh… "Truth is long" as I wrote this. I'm, I'm drawing the royalties off of both them now. Uh… and some of them come out of, uh… foreign countries. N: mmm, mmm J: People in foreign countries. "Everlasting Joy," I, I had a lot of people that recorded that… that was, that was one me and Martha… I recorded with the Masters family. Johnny let me do the leading. I played the mandolin and Tom Gordy, uh… and a piano player, uh… hymns that… guitar steel… guitar man. We had a, we had a real, real, band behind us. And uh… we recorded it. I don't have any… tunes I did with John and Lucille. But, uh… John didn't do any singing. I, I took his place singing. Me and Lucille Boyd sang trio on most of them. N: So did you get your love of gospel music from your mother? J: No… never, never had, uh… I never had any… I never had any love for… (coughs) Course I heard her, I heard her playing the… organ playing. She… she played organ. Churches, music in the city and daddy met her, uh… she… and daddy played the fiddle on uh… on some of them songbooks but… I'm, I'm talking about when I… how come he started singing gospel was Martha, uh… uh… I tell you we used to… the first song we sung on radio in… (coughs) in Atlanta, Georgia. Aunt Hattie said to the, to the… I went up there with Martha and she had a… order there "No man in life beyond the pale road," "Pale Road", and uh… so they was on the station right. A woman called Aunt Hattie… and John Lair had to send that out cause Aunt Hattie'd sued him. (laughs) Cause she, she was using his name so he sent it right out and called her Aunt Hattie. And ah… and uh… that… So she, she went up there with Martha to the program one morning and she said, "What are you looking at me?" [imitating Aunt Hattie] She was talking like an old woman looking out for her nieces. Be their aunt, she supposed to be their aunt. And she turned around and she bawled me out for looking at me… making eyes with all her girls when I was supposed to be married for two or three years. (laughter) J: And nobody knew, nobody knew that. And nobody would do anything about it and I do… I went out and worked with Hank Penny. A lot of them… even the… down there and they paid me… they paid me… they paid me. I was making more money than she was working for the Atlanta Journal. Cause they… Hank Penny, and uh… different, uh… groups of… and on the evenings some of the other radio stations in Atlanta… A: mmm, mmm J: They'd… they'd take me on personal appearances for things when I was working and they'd… Patrick Glass and some of them other people that worked on the smaller stations. I worked with them and… I'd, I'd make more money… making… But uh… she said to me, she said… "Do you sing?" I said well sure I can sing. She go and said, "Why don't you get your set up here and sing a song here on the podium." A: (laughs) J: And, and I said… I said, um… I, I… said that I would if she'd let her niece sing with me. And uh… we got up there in the first thing… the first song we sang, that we sang on WFB together, we sung at that morning. And ah… Atlanta Journal supposedly… John Lair (unintelligible) A: mmm, mmm J: He didn't want me to working with them girls. He sent us down there. So they… that was, that was… I think that was a cotton glove story. Atlanta Journal never had that… Anyhow, keeping me out of… out of the deal. I say, we sang that song, uh… what was it… "Keep on the sunny side"… I believe it was "Keep on the sunny side of life." We sang that as a due, duet. Now we used that for a theme when we got our own program. Probably sung "The Sunny side of life" for… about a… uh… they, uh… eh… I don't know what it, what it did… we sang that song and man the next day we got seventy or eighty cards and letters sent in wanting her, wanting her to put us on to sing again. And, uh… and, and, and so… she must have talked to somebody because then, then… then they… Atlanta Journal all of a sudden… Atlanta Journal all of a sudden changed their minds. And uh… I, I was put on the payroll. That's the way we got started singing together. A: About to end the tape here. Pause N: So what were the songs that you like to sing before…? J: Well, before, before I started that… I tell you… when I was in the navy… that was when Roy Acuff was starting. A: mmm, mmm J: and he had a lot of good songs, uh… "Nobody Answered me" was one of them. And… and uh… uh… "Call" and "Call and Nobody Answered Me." That was one of my favorites I sing that. And a lot of them, a lot of them, about, about everything Roy Acuff could sang I did. I'd a sing. I didn't try to sound like Roy Acuff. I just sang the songs, see. That was… the, the…the… course there's a lot of other tunes that I had learned I tried. "May I sleep in your barn tonight mister?" and stuff that I had recorded myself back then. Didn't try to yodel. (laughter) J: I done pass that thing. N: Did you like the bluesy kind of songs? J: Yeah, I kinda liked the bluesy songs. Some of them. N: The jazzy type of stuff. J: Yeah N: Would people dance to those songs or we they songs that you would do? J: Songs for radio listening. Mostly… we didn't have no television then. Lot of everybody listen… everybody… you could walk down the street… in Atlanta, Georgia when our program was on… on the… uh… on the radio… WSB. N: mmm, mmm J: And you could walk down the street and any store you'd pass. Everybody in Atlanta, Georgia had their radio tuned on WSB. And was listening to that program. And that's how popular it was. They was that way all through the country down there. That's why we had so many people down there that the… on Sand Mountain. (laughter) J: We did. Course we never anything like that before. But we, but we did… we did have the shows… several… two or three shows some places where we went. They wouldn't hold them. We'd have to clear the house and do it again. A: Now did John Lair set all these up or…? J: No, he'd…. End of tape
|
Interview:
James Roberts
|